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CriticalResist (Crit)'s avatar

I'm still technically on hiatus but I wanted to talk about this and try out a new format.

Much shorter than my usual writing, but I feel it gets the point across. I didn't feel like -- because I'm not able to at this time -- look up and down for sources, history (Kneecap has made other engaged statements before), etc.

As for anti-fascist music I recommend: Moscow Death Brigade and Vizzion.

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๐“™๐“ช๐“ผ๐“ถ๐“ฒ๐“ท๐“ฎ ๐“ฆ๐“ธ๐“ต๐“ฏ๐“ฎ's avatar

Such cowards. They didn't have to say anything about Hamas or Hezbollah. You can't stand with the resistance then renounce the resistance fighters.

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JennyStokes's avatar

When any person or group backs off it is because they are cowards.

How can we help the Palestinian people if we do the same.

No interest in hearing their music.

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CriticalResist (Crit)'s avatar

I didn't want to say it in the post itself because I want to hear people's thoughts about this, but I agree with you. And it shows backing off is a fool's errand anyway.

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Nicola Paris's avatar

I think itโ€™s disappointing but Iโ€™m not sure if Iโ€™d personally call it cowardice - their initial act absolutely was done with knowledge of serious ramifications being possible - and then being realised.

I reckon the criticism is fair though and particularly the point about never being able to satisfy Zionists.

I guess I want to give them a chance - they are young lads put under incredible pressure showing more courage then my own prime minister at least

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ontological intifada's avatar

i have that Voice of Hezbollah book! it's so good. i know i've said it before but: Hassan Nasrallah knew what the fuck was up.

and i agree with the criticisms along the lines of "you support our dead bodies but not our resistance".

for anti-empire music i recommend Slum Prophecy

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Joe Wrote's avatar

I think you've got this wrong. You mention that supporting armed resistance is illegal in the UK, but you're downplaying it. The smear campaign you speak of, coordinated by the US, UK, and Israel, is to try to put them in prison, something the British government has been doing for years. It was accelerated by Israel, which is terrified by what they saw at Coachella: thousands of young people standing with Palestine. That's why they're trying to take Kneecap down, and stuff like this helps them.

As Zionists circled two videos of them "promoting violence," for the first time, they're in legal danger. We should all agree it's perfectly acceptable to avoid incarceration.

I'm saddened that leftists don't give their allies the benefit of the doubt and are so quick to throw each other under the bus.

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CriticalResist (Crit)'s avatar

You say that as if prison is a fatality.

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Joe Wrote's avatar

Do I need to explain what happens to Republican Irish Catholics in British prisons?

Furthermore, if you think incarceration is no big deal, why haven't you engaged in extreme direct action? I don't want to go to prison, so I won't ask anyone to do that. But it sounds like you don't mind. So, what's stopping you?

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CriticalResist (Crit)'s avatar

That's a very strange mischaracterization of all I've said so far to be honest.

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Joe Wrote's avatar

If you were Kneecap, would you have gone to prison? Or would you have tried to avoid it?

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Shadiya's avatar

I'm black English and a complete wuss. I'd rather not be banged up but yes, I am willing to go to prison rather than pretend I don't believe that there is no right to resist oppression, let alone that that right to resist isn't enshrined in law. I have no platform and I am still ready, if I had a platform, there's no way I wouldn't use it to the max. As it is, all I can do is share whatever information comes my way and God knows, at this point, it feels like fuck all. I'd probably welcome a prison sentence at this point tbh. I can't boycott anything else, I can't withdraw my labour, meanwhile every fucking day there are kids being murdered. At least banged up you don't have guilt about not managing to do more. End of the day, our taxes are funding genocide, so we are all complicit. Do I think it's ok to point the finger at individuals for not doing more? It depends. But if your schtick is "Power to the people" and it's a financial schtick and then you cop out, I don't have any spare empathy for you.

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Nicola Paris's avatar

I donโ€™t think itโ€™s a financial schtick - they would absolutely be aware the coachella stunt would come with consequences inc financial ones

And if we are considering use of their platform - being martyrs locked up isnโ€™t really much of a platform - strategically they are better off outside prison imho

And Zionists play so bloody dirty and none of us know the whole picture- are they able to cope with prison, do they have disabilities, have their families been threatened

Iโ€™ve participated in direct action that cld risk prison and I thought about it a lot. I wasnโ€™t exactly keen but I was in a better position than most to manage it I figured. Now Iโ€™m absolutely not. I think itโ€™s a lot easier to critique than ride a storm of that level of pressure. I hate it and I imagine they do as well, that theyโ€™ve had to compromise but I just donโ€™t personally feel comfortable judging them for trying not to go to jail

It really sucks all round

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CrumpledForeskin's avatar

Amen!

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JennyStokes's avatar

NO choice.

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CrumpledForeskin's avatar

You sound like youโ€™re trying to quiet the resistance movement. I donโ€™t trust your stance whatsoever. You sound like a Zionist!! Itโ€™s the same thing as saying resistance must be nonviolent. Youโ€™re preaching for people to capitulate to the Zionists. I say itโ€™s a bullshit and worthless stance.

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Furman Chas's avatar

I agree with this person. Don't criticise people for taking steps to avoid incarceration if you yourself wouldn't be willing to go to prison for the cause.

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JennyStokes's avatar

To all people incarceration probably is a 'fatality' eventually But I will not be told what to think or say.

At times like these we cannot back down. How many people can the system take out if we all stay strong?

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CriticalResist (Crit)'s avatar

It can be used for agitprop purposes too, and them being artists it's not like they'll be fired from their jobs and blacklisted from working in a corporation. IF it comes to that of course, right now no lawsuit has even been opened that I know of.

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Joe Wrote's avatar

Terrorism charges will get you barred from entering most countries, so it very much will blacklists Kneecap and will stop them from speaking for Palestine. That's why Zionists started this smear campaign.

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The Ignorant Ninja's avatar

You say that as if youโ€™re willing to put your money where your mouth is.

Do time and then talk.

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Nicola Paris's avatar

It certainly can be - less likely for whites but not like a good track record of Irish political prisoners either

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Kristine's avatar

Literal definition of the left eating itself. What a waste of time and energy to criticize people who are doing so much more than most; who ultimately hold the same values. We need to get our shit together and build solidarity even when people donโ€™t do things perfectly (in our eyes). Kneecap are hardly cowards, but sorry, theyโ€™re human. Humans feel fear and are imperfect.

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CrumpledForeskin's avatar

Fuck you! Donโ€™t believe the Zionists that are on here trying to tell people not to resist or tell the truth. Itโ€™s the same as being told that the only resistance worthwhile is nonviolent.

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Nicola Paris's avatar

There arenโ€™t any Zionists here and no one is saying people should capitulate. Nor are people denying that armed resistance is legitimate. A few of us are just willing to give them a little grace for wanting to avoid prison on terrorism charges.

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Joe Wrote's avatar

Well said. It's really sad to see how quickly some people will throw their friends and allies under the bus. I hope that if I ever make mistakes, people will afford me grace, and I hope they have the same faith in me.

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CrumpledForeskin's avatar

Fuck you too!

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Nicola Paris's avatar

How many years prison have you done bro?

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The_Sodapop_Jesus๐Ÿ”ป๐Ÿ‡ต๐Ÿ‡ธ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐Ÿ‡ฉ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฉ's avatar

I have to admit while I would like to be more understanding the truth is they could of made the statement without mentioning or besmirching Hamas or Hezbollah and they could of also highlighted the fact that resistance is in accordance with international law.

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Joe Wrote's avatar

I don't see how they could. A video surfaced of them supporting those groups, which is illegal in the UK. Another one came up of them "promoting violence" against Tory MPs. As they were being investigated for "supporting violence and terrorism," they had to address those two issues.

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The_Sodapop_Jesus๐Ÿ”ป๐Ÿ‡ต๐Ÿ‡ธ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐Ÿ‡ฉ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฉ's avatar

Iโ€™ll admit that the system itself is built in such a way that demands acquiescence to the use of flawed logic to try and make logical conclusions IE pretending those groups are terrorist organizations when they most definitely are not, I personally did not see that video of them claiming support by name but would of like to see them just pull a Donald Trump and just make a blanket statement regarding โ€œviolence and terrorismโ€ all together without singling out any one party in particular. I do though also appreciate the point youโ€™re trying to make and although I do wish it wouldnโ€™t have been done in a way that continues false narratives about Hamas I also do not want to see them go to jail. Just not sure if it would be more a symbolic or surface level arrest which is usually seen in response to direct action or acts of protest.

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Joe Wrote's avatar

Definitely! And whether we like it or not, we're all constrained by that system. I think we should recognize that and afford grace to allies and friends who are constrained by it.

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JennyStokes's avatar

What are we when acquiesce. What does one expect in the future when we have been shut down?

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The_Sodapop_Jesus๐Ÿ”ป๐Ÿ‡ต๐Ÿ‡ธ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐Ÿ‡ฉ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฉ's avatar

This is my other half lol because I do understand your point as well and share the concern for how this will shape the basis of future issues

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I Know Nothing's avatar

We are societies where anyone who is out of line is sent to the gulag.

People with any sense would avoid that.

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JennyStokes's avatar

You think you will be safe?

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Nicola Paris's avatar

Iโ€™d suggest theyโ€™d be gunning for way more serious sentences than some given out to protesters (although that has been rapidly escalating in recent years in many countries)

Deliberate civil disobedience during nonviolent protest is done with preparation and understanding of risk - and mostly lower level charges - whereas some version of inciting and supporting terrorism on this issue in particular I reckon theyโ€™d absolutely want to make an example of them.

To be clear though I think the deliberate prison time strategy of Roger Hallam is privileged nonsense and very irresponsible to be advocating

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The Ignorant Ninja's avatar

It is by far my greatest gripe with the left. Thereโ€™s absolutely no sane or rational self-policing.

A prominent and EXTREMELY USEFUL group takes a major personal risk to promote a cause, but they donโ€™t do it to the standards of a million arm chair experts. Itโ€™s not good enough according to people who are literally doing nothing.

At the same time, Neo-Nazis are making fake leftist memes and spreading them around and no one says a thing. They wonโ€™t even bother to realize itโ€™s happening. Why? Because we need to hyper focus on this one completely irrelevant detail to our own determent! We donโ€™t have time to deal with these million other issues which keep kicking our asses!

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Joe Wrote's avatar

You're identifying a perpetual problem with the ultra-left, aka Trotskyists. Lenin called it the worst part of intellectualism: sitting alone writing about what a 'perfect' leftist would do, when neither humans nor the world are perfect (including the person advocating for perfection). This is what we're seeing from this post.

I suggest reading Lenin's Left Wing Communism. He addresses the flaws of this ideology very well, and points out why stuff like this never helps.

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CrumpledForeskin's avatar

Is it a leftist position to be against genocide? The fact you said this, I know youโ€™re a Zionist. Youโ€™re on here trying to quiet resistance.

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Liberation Is Our Word's avatar

Itโ€™s quite disappointing and really waters down the statement they made at Coachella.

Not only does it diminish KNEECAPโ€™s โ€œpoliticsโ€ but itโ€™s contradictory. They want to call for liberation but they want to distance themselves from those pursuing and fighting for that liberation.

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CrumpledForeskin's avatar

Knowing the possible ramifications of making a statement and then backing off the statement, after the expected response, ruins their credibility. I am saddened by their capitulation. Bowing down to Zionists will only make them more emboldened , and attack everyone else standing up to them. If they see intimidation work, it only reinforces them to continue their fear tactics.

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Shadiya's avatar

I hear you and tbh, I don't judge the band as individuals, as in " this person is a bad person" way, not at all. It's more of a macro micro thing.

As you say, it's important when taking any direct action that you consider possible outcomes and plan accordingly. That's the responsibility of the individual, no? So yes, I do feel they could have done that inner check before going ahead and then rowing back, because I think it feeds in to the pervasive underlying message that resistance is futile because it's always crushed or people sell out or whatever. Whereas people being wrongfully imprisoned for speaking up about genocide is going to eventually crash the system because a) the prisons are already overcrowded and b) people's natural sense of justice will boil over and call for change.

At the end of the day, they have done a lot to raise awareness of the issues and I salute them for that.

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@travellingcompanion1's avatar

I still support this group for the courage to do what they did in the US. Let me ask the critics, โ€˜have you do anything like the protest from KNEECAPโ€™? If you have good on you. What was the response from the Zionists? Before you pass judgement walk in their shoes. I wonโ€™t be engaging in a dialogue about this on line and no DMโ€™s.

Thanks for your great courage KNEECAP. FreeFreePalestine.

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CrumpledForeskin's avatar

You canโ€™t say they are courageous when they capitulate. It just makes them look performative.

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David's avatar

This article is misleading. Thereโ€™s nothing in the bands statement that walks back their stance on Gaza. If the author and some of the voices that seem so critical of the band for not supporting Hamas, I wonder how far they would actually go. Besides that point, the relationship in the North with paramilitary groups is very complicated, much more nuanced than the what many of the critics are aware of or have experienced. Likewise with Hamas. Give the boys some credit, this is not some binary choice as in, if you donโ€™t support Hamas, you support Israel. This is an oversimplification and playing into the hands of the Zionist lobby.

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Shadiya's avatar

You make good points and I for one definitely don't have any experience with paramilitary groups. That said, as far as I can tell, Hamas is still broadly supported by Gazan Palestinians so any walking back on that, surely lands like telling people what their resistance should like? I think we have enough of that already.

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Shadiya's avatar

Should look like, I meant. Can't work out how to edit the comment.

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CrumpledForeskin's avatar

You said a lot of words, to say nothing.

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Emily B's avatar

Pretty sure they were trying to avoid legal trouble in the UK, not avoid criticism from Zionists. Sure, it is correct under international law to defend Hamas and Hezbollah, but how does that help individuals in countries with contrary laws? Also, why are you assuming they are not just representing their actual position, even if you disagree with it?

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Jennifer Beatty's avatar

They didnโ€™t back down, they arenโ€™t cowards, and the Irish already beat empire. Show some respect

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

I like your new format. A lot of people, myself included, are more likely to read the entirety of a shorter article than a longer one.

As for Kneecap, shit man, I'm American and I can't help comparing them to manufactured pop icons like Taylor Swift who will never utter a discouraging word about genocide or Zionism. Those Irish kids are head-and-shoulders above them, and saying they don't support a group that they almost certainly know very little about doesn't strike me as any kind of betrayal to the Palestinian people.

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CrumpledForeskin's avatar

All the people saying that bowing down is acceptable, are completely wrong. All theyโ€™ve accomplished is making the Zionists feel more emboldened and confident in their actions. I can believe itโ€™s even a question. What theyโ€™ve done is weaken the resistance and made the Zionists stronger. There is no other reasonable explanation of what has happened. This is just another thread reinforcing the fact that there is no saving our society. I donโ€™t think it deserves being saved at this point. We all deserve whatโ€™s coming to us. Even the ones that see Palestine for what it is, are too weak to stand for something that may cause them discomfort. Itโ€™s pathetic!

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CrumpledForeskin's avatar

I think my comments were deleted, so Iโ€™ll answer you here. I spent two years in prison, and they were god awful. That doesnโ€™t mean I wouldnโ€™t do it again for something important. If you are going to use your platform as someone willing to fight for Palestinians, you canโ€™t capitulate. Have the Palestinians done this? No they havenโ€™t. Iโ€™ll always speak the truth as I see it, no matter what. What do people have, if they donโ€™t stand for whatโ€™s right? I donโ€™t believe in anything but the truth, and they capitulated. Doing so make the Zionists stronger and only encourages more of the same. I donโ€™t play scared. The people that do are worthless towards change.

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Megan McInerney's avatar

Kneecap are so interesting to me, aesthetically and ideologically. I like that theyโ€™ve been so vocal about what life is like in Northern Ireland for catholic communities NOW, despite all the rhetoric around post Good Friday agreement โ€˜no more violence so everything is fineโ€™ sort of sentiment, but occasionally they seem a bit gimmicky and stray into the realm of self-parody. Idk if itโ€™s because the images of northern Irish resistance to British occupation are so ubiquitous because theyโ€™re so old, but itโ€™s interesting in regards to how much REAL solidarity they show

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Nicola Paris's avatar

Iโ€™m interested in what you mean by gimmicky? (Genuinely)

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Megan McInerney's avatar

It all just seems really performative to me

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Furman Chas's avatar

Fuck sakes. And here I was praising Kneecap for being one of the few high profile figures to speak truth to power. Cowards. Fucking cowards. If they don't support Hamas, I then what they're basically also saying is that, by extension, they also don't support Irish Republicanism? Argh. Why couldn't they just stand by their original admirable words, suck up and write off the cancelled gigs, and stood their ground, instead of apologising for supporting an indigenous people's struggle against oppression and genocide?!

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